Razgovor s korisnikom:Obsuser

Dobro došli!

Dobro došli na Vikicitat na srpskom jeziku, slobodnu višejezičnu zbirku citata znamenitih ljudi i dela! Pozivamo vas da učestvujete u rastu ovog projekta . Svoje doprinose na člancima ne potpisujete, dok komentare na stranicama za razgovor, korisničkim stranama Trgu obavezno potpisujete tako što ćete napisati 4 tilde. ~~~~.

Još jednom, dobro došli!.

Changing $wgArticleCountMethod to any

A followup to our exchange at Vikicitat:Trg#Komentari:

•   Perhaps I'm just seeing a bad Google translation of the above proposal, but I just wanted to clarify: currently the only Wikimedia wikis that use $wgArticleCountMethod='any' are the Gujarati and Polish Wikisources, the Chinese and Czech Wikinewses, and Wikidata (see "wgArticleCountMethod" in InitialiseSettings.php). No Wikipedias (yet). - dcljr (razgovor) 03:38, 10. avgust 2017. (CEST)

I did not write that some Wikipedia uses $wgArticleCountMethod='any' (I didn't know anything about these methods for Wikipedias and things until your post above) but that count is as on Wikipedia; maybe it is not same as on Wikipedia, with same $wgArticleCountMethod value but for editors it is enough to know and easy to notice if pages with no wikilinks are counting as articles or not, and that only redirects and other namespaces don't count etc. --Obsuser (razgovor) 13:32, 15. avgust 2017. (CEST)

Sorry, but I'm still confused. (Obviously this is now just a grammar issue, so that's why I moved the discussion here.)

The Google translation of the first sentence of your original proposal is:

I'm launching a discussion to achieve a formal consensus to change the value of $ wgArticleCountMethod to "any" for this Vicki so that it counts all pages except for redirects, etc., as well as in Wikipedia.

The "as well as in" part is a bit awkward, since it is unclear what part of the sentence that phrase is intended to modify. One interpretation is that "as well as in" refers to the word "changing", meaning that you wanted to discuss changing the counting method for both this wiki and the Serbian Wikipedia. I assumed that wasn't what you meant.

Another interpretation would be that "as well as in" should have been the phrase "like in", which would seem to refer to the counting method you want this wiki to adopt — meaning that you wanted this wiki to change to the counting method that Wikipedia currently uses. This is what I assumed you meant, therefore I thought you believed that the Serbian Wikipedia currently uses the 'any' counting method.

A third possible interpretation (which I didn't think of until now) is that "as well as in" refers only to the word "etc.", but this also seems to imply that you wanted to change to the counting method that Wikipedia currently uses!

As quoted above, you followed up by saying:

…but that count is as on Wikipedia; maybe it is not same as on Wikipedia, with same $wgArticleCountMethod value but…

What would "as on Wikipedia" mean if not "the same as on Wikipedia"? Surely you're not just saying that the mere fact that this wiki counts its articles is what this wiki has in common with Wikipedia. (That would seem to "go without saying".)

Sorry, but I just don't understand. Can you say what you meant in a completely different way? - dcljr (razgovor) 23:01, 15. avgust 2017. (CEST)

@dcljr: You can ignore it. But I will explain. Of course I didn't think of changing both this wiki and sr.wikipedia counting method. Your second interpretation is correct except that I didn't mean exactly on 'any' but only gave compass, reference. Third one no.

With "tako da se broje sve stranice osim preusmerenja i sl., kao i na Vikipediji" I wanted to say "so that all pages except redirects count etc. [actually and similar is exact translation for i sl(ično).], as on [like on / like in / as in] Wikipedia" (you can put "so that all pages except redirects count etc., as on Wikipedia" into Google Translate and will get same Serbian translation: "Tako da sve stranice osim preusmerenja broje i slično, kao na Vikipediji"; in second translation offer "i" is found as possible between "kao" and "na" in "kao na Vikipediji"; reflexive pronoun "se" is missing after "da" in "da sve stranice osim preusmerenja broje"; t is correctly non-capital in second translation offer; verb "broje" position not making any change).

Because on Wikipedia all pages in main namespace, except redirects (and I guess disambiguation pages) count as articles (Pages with content, first cell stats on Special:Statistics) – major difference which is key in this whole discussion is that pages with no wikilinks count on Wikipedia, here they currently don't count, so I gave reference by saying that after this change it will be here "as on Wikipedia". Do we agree that after changing method to 'all' here, even that on Wikipedia it is not 'all' (at least as you said), counting will be generally same as on Wikipedia (articles with no wikilinks also count, redirects don't count; main two factors for users both here and on Wikipedia)? If this is not true, could you explain differences that would exist after changing on this wiki to 'all' and current Wikipedia way of counting Pages with content (in terms of what counts, what does not)?

Even if pages with no wikilinks do not count on Wikipedia, proposal is still valid and clear (change $wgArticleCountMethod to „any” for this wiki): we want here and on Wikisource (especially here on Wikiquote) that such pages count because there are many such pages and it is not fair to have stats 224 at Main page when there is at least 1500 real articles (on https://sr.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&hideredirects=1, without italicized items which are redirects). You gave example of Herman Hese yourself, and that page really is an article – probably better than some which has only one quote but with some valid wikilink which will "activate it" so that it suddenly "becomes" article. [e] --Obsuser (razgovor) 23:41, 15. avgust 2017. (CEST)

"pages with no wikilinks count on Wikipedia" No, that is not true. That's my point. Before the settings change, this wiki and sr.wiki both counted articles in exactly the same way. On sr.wiki, a page (still) counts as an "article" (reflected in the "Content pages" = "Stranice sa sadržajem" = "Stranice sa sadržajem" entry at w:Special:Statistics) if:

1. it is in a "content namespace" (on that wiki, only the main namespace);
2. it is not a redirect page; and
3. it contains at least one "internal style" [[wikilink]] to a page title on the same wiki.

That is how the "link" method of article counting ($wgArticleCountMethod='link') works. Almost all Wikimedia content wikis use that counting method. (BTW, these two edits I just made at sr.wiki verify that the article counting there does indeed work that way.)

After the settings change, a page on this wiki now counts will count as an article if:

1. it is in a "content namespace" (on this wiki, only the main namespace); and
2. it is not a redirect page.

That is how the "any" article counting method ($wgArticleCountMethod='any') works. (Note that neither counting method counts redirects as articles.) - dcljr (razgovor) 05:25, 16. avgust 2017. (CEST) [Changed wording of this comment since the counting method of this wiki hasn't actually changed yet, as you noted at Phabricator. - dcljr (razgovor) 08:32, 16. avgust 2017. (CEST)]

OK, that is desired state: Wikipedia should not get touched (it has a lot pages and does need to count those without proper wikilink) and Wikiquote should get method 'all' (because most of those pages on https://sr.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&hideredirects=1, if not all, [except redirects of course] are articles even if without proper wikilink [quotes themselves and references matter]). --Obsuser (razgovor) 05:34, 16. avgust 2017. (CEST)

Right. (You mean 'any'.) By the way, Special:AllPages doesn't seem to have the "hide redirects" feature on any Wikimedia wiki. Try Special:PrefixIndex instead. (Leave the text box empty to list all the pages in the namespace.) - dcljr (razgovor) 08:44, 16. avgust 2017. (CEST)

@dcljr: Yes, I mean 'any'. One more thing: If "Special:AllPages doesn't seem to have the "hide redirects" feature on any Wikimedia wiki", as you said, why does link named "Stranice sa sadržajem" (Pages with content) on https://sr.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Statistics has URL "https://sr.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Посебно:Све_странице&hideredirects=1"? Shouldn't &hideredirects=1 get removed if hideredirects does not function? Also, second link named "Stranica" (Page) with description below has different (and still very similar) URL: "https://sr.wikiquote.org/wiki/Посебно:Све_странице" (without &hideredirects=1 or things of course), and yet currently displays exactly same content as first URL mentioned for stats parameter above. Maybe to create a task on Phab, or there is a reason for such behaviour? --Obsuser (razgovor) 23:29, 16. avgust 2017. (CEST)

I don't have an explanation. I've submitted a Phabricator task. - dcljr (razgovor) 02:47, 17. avgust 2017. (CEST)